WORMSCAN: HAYES [PART 5]

And what happened to the man who gave it to him.

Elizabeth The Punisher Dove

Jan 19, 2025

NOTES: I made a few corrections to spellings and grammar.

If you missed previous parts to this part of the WORMSCAN series, you can find it here.

WORMSCAN: HAYES [PART 1]

WORMSCAN: HAYES [PART 2]

WORMSCAN: HAYES [PART 3]

WORMSCAN: HAYES [PART 4]

Date: Wed Jan 08, 1997 8:46 pm CST
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Conspiracy Nation — Vol. 9 Num. 97
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NOTES OF MEETINGS/CONVERSATIONS ON INSLAW & FOSTERGATE (10/21/95)
=================================================================
By "Mr. Mercedes" (Pseudonym)
-----------------------------

[...continued...]

By the way, the Washington Post supposedly paid many thousands of dollars to Roger Morris and Sally Denton for their story on Mena, but after 11 weeks of delays they pulled it because they felt they were getting jacked around and got Bob Guccione to publish it in Penthouse 7/95. Also, Terry Reed has a book coming out on Barry Seal/Mena, Arkansas. Another book project now underway is the story of the CIA's drug op in New York with NYPD cop and "made man" "Big Al" Carone, former Colonel in Army Intel. Carone was the "bagman" for NYPD, friend of DCI Bill Casey, and "banker" for the CIA's drugs op from 1946-80 (died of "CIA flu"), along with other "bagmen" associates, Russell Herman (also died of "CIA flu") and "fixer/briber" Al Hobert and NYPD "dirty" cop Gene Howard who were all "on the take."

Two more CIA drug smuggling ops reports were broadcast on TV. One program was done by Mike Wallace of "60 Minutes" which re-broadcast his 2-year-old report on 9/3/95 about a Venezuelan Cartel/CIA supposed cocaine smuggling sting operation. Unfortunately, this CIA op allowed many millions of dollars of powder to hit the streets of America, without ever busting anyone. The other one was a British TV Ch. 4 broadcast of the suppressed "The Maltese Doublecross" documentary on Pan Am 103's heroin smuggling operation which presented witnesses and evidence which showed that this may very well have been the real reason for the bomb explosion which killed all passengers on board.

As for the CIA/NSA computer operation, it would appear that it is relatively new and extremely lucrative. Estimates of just how profitable this operation is range into the hundreds of millions of dollars, which goes to funding "off the books" Black Ops, now that Congress, with only a slightly higher degree of scrutiny, has cut back on their funding.

James Norman, Bill Hamilton and many others state that in the early 1980s the government expropriated Inslaw's revolutionary and proprietary PROMIS software after Bill Hamilton had created an advanced version of PROMIS which was originally developed while he was at the NSA. It was based on computer aided software engineering technologies which used software to create and modify software, thus enabling PROMIS to be modified to a multitude of applications because of its inherent versatility and adaptability. The government realized its numerous applications such as applying it to the secret purpose of tracking down terrorist money in international banking.

The CIA, with operatives such as Oliver North and Ted Shackley, purportedly used this very "adaptable" PROMIS to create secret bank accounts through "computerized money laundering" for the purpose of financing CIA covert ops, such as Iran-Contra and Iraqgate. This led to another application, wherein the NSA/CIA used it to create a compromised universal banking system which could be secretly accessed by their bugged software, sold by NSA "front companies" to unsuspecting banks, which allowed them [NSA/CIA] to access secret accounts anywhere around the world.

Additionally, specially designed NSA chips have been placed in computers, along with Inslaw's stolen PROMIS Plus, which are then sold through these NSA "front companies," such as Systematics, Boston Systematics, Hadron and Israeli Systematics and agents, such as Robert Maxwell, to strategic and highly sensitive ally and enemy customers alike. (Related articles and info: Time 8/19/95 "Onward Cyber Soldier," New York Times 8/19 "Citibank Fraud Case Raises Computer Questions," Wall Street Journal's and Wang Laboratories' John A. Dean 3/3/95 letter to DCI John Woolsley.)

Purportedly, these bugged computers are set up to transmit their sensitive information within by data bursts up to low-flying NSA satellites. Inslaw and their Atlanta law firm, with the assistance of attorney Eliott Richardson (Pres. Nixon's former Attorney General who resigned in protest over Watergate), are preparing to go back into the Court of Federal Claims in December '95 after a more than 10-year battle to seek a multi-hundred million dollar judgment for non-payment of royalties. A number of knowledgeable people state that if PROMIS's advanced software was stolen and used since the early 1980s for numerous applications such as in our nuclear subs and nuclear missile defense system, Inslaw should be owed in excess of half a billion dollars.

Some politicians and journalists privately, with only a few publicly, have supported Inslaw's position that the government stole their PROMIS software, but almost all have been unwilling to really investigate and go public with the real facts. Seymour Hersh, one of a few to attempt to get the whole Inslaw story out, recently researched and proposed an article for the New York Times Magazine, Vanity Fair, and Atlantic Monthly, but unfortunately they all passed.

Even a House investigation and retired Federal Judge Nicholas J. Bua's grand jury 1993 investigation in Chicago didn't get to the bottom of this government scandal, possibly because of the magnitude of the situation. Attorney General Barr appointed Bua as a Special Counsel, but he was really a "dependent counsel." Even though Chuck Hayes, who secured many of the witnesses (such as Ari Ben-Menashe) did testify, Michael Riconosciuto along with many [other] witnesses didn't in person or at all. The Judge was sued for not conducting a proper investigation by Chicago investigative journalist Sherman Skolnick and Michael Riconosciuto. Bua submitted a "whitewashed" report to Attorney General Reno, who turned it over to the White House who did nothing... except send Inslaw information in a secure envelope to Vince Foster shortly before his death.

Debra Gorham, former secretary to Vince Foster and William Kennedy, her prior boss, secretly testified before Senate Whitewater Committee on 6/23/95. In addition to Webster Hubbell, William Kennedy was another Rose Law Firm partner who resigned at the White House under a scandal and, also as Jackson Stephen's attorney in 1984, he filed incomplete information with the Federal Reserve about Stephens's family holding in Worthen Bank (New York Times 5/9/95 "Fed Ends Inquiry Into an Arkansas Family").

In her confidential testimony, Debra Gorham disclosed a key point wherein she stated that Vince Foster gave her two NSA 1-inch ringed binders (Ambrose Evans-Pritchard's London Sunday Telegraph 8/6 article and Debra Gorham's excerpted confidential transcripts) which she put in Bernard Nussbaum's safe. Debra Gorham described one binder as blue; it may well have been our nuclear missile launch codes which control the entire U.S. missile defense system — the ultimate power. These codes access any missile and can launch it wherever programmed.

Also, at a later public Whitewater Senate hearing on 8/1/95, Senator Faircloth's aide confirmed that Debra Gorham was instructed by her counsel to say, "I do not recall," when he passed a hurriedly written note before her to respond to the Senator's question, "Did Foster ever get any documents on Systematics or Inslaw?" In direct contradiction to her sworn testimony, through a confidential friend, Gorham admitted receiving and even reading some of a secure letter on Inslaw from Webster Hubbell. Although it might be hard to prove, since she only admitted through her friend that she was familiar with Inslaw from the previous Washington, D.C. law firm employer, there can be no doubt that Gorham lied to Congress about not receiving a letter on Inslaw.

Chuck Hayes and other highly placed confidential sources have stated that Vince Foster, as a NSA secret operative since the late '70s and a partner at Rose Law Firm, worked on secret and clandestine matters at Systematics (owned by Jackson Stephens). Larry Nichols, a former Arkansas friend of Clinton's, has stated that a Systematics employee, who is afraid of being fired, confirmed to him that Foster came in shortly before his death, flashing NSA credentials, and demanded that this person run a secret program for him, which he did. After Foster's death, this same Systematics employee asked Larry Nichols if anything he did for Vince Foster could have been a reason for his death. In a significant development, Rep. Leach, Chairman of the Whitewater hearings, may be prepared to subpoena this person and therefore force him to testify when the hearings commence around the end of September, but don't count on him being called or showing up.

[...to be continued...]

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Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt. Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et pauperem.
— Liber Proverbiorum XXXI: 8-9

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Date: Thu Jan 09, 1997 7:58 pm CST
From: bigred
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Subject: Conspiracy Nation — Vol. 9 Num. 98

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Conspiracy Nation — Vol. 9 Num. 98
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NOTES OF MEETINGS/CONVERSATIONS ON INSLAW & FOSTERGATE (10/21/95)
=================================================================
By "Mr. Mercedes" (Pseudonym)
-----------------------------

[...continued...]

[CN: The rest of this essay, as typed by CN, omits portions of the original which seemed redundant. Also, the claims made by "Mr. Mercedes" are his own; much of what he says is beyond my own knowledge. Be assured, however, that I have spoken with "Mr. Mercedes" many times and that he is not a dilettante in these matters.]

In addition to acting as an NSA agent, James Norman stated that Vince Foster was also selling NSA and other high-level U.S. government and military secrets to Israel's Mossad with the assistance of another former Rose Law Firm partner, Hillary Clinton (she was the attorney of record for none other than Systematics once in 1978 and later in (1981 or 82?))

James Norman stated that Dee Dee Myers, former White House Press Secretary, reportedly set up Foster by getting him out of the White House where he was killed in a not very professional and hurriedly arranged mafia-style hit, made to look like a suicide. Her recent drunk driving arrest was a cover for an intense CIA interrogation about her involvement in Foster's death.

In a completely different, but interrelated vein of the Inslaw/PROMIS situation, CNN broadcast an excerpt of a one-and-a-half hour taped interview on 12/12/91 with Canadian John Belton who described how former California Gov. Reagan's Secretary of Health, Financial News Network founder/former owner and secret intelligence operative, Earl W. Brian, was involved in funding October Surprise. Additionally, Belton told CNN just how Earl Brian defrauded Nesbitt Thompson, the Canadian investment company where Belton worked, of $50 million through stock manipulation of Brian's public companies. Despite the significance of Belton's CNN interview, which aired worldwide and even with front page coverage in Canadian newspapers, there's been no coverage in the U.S.

James Norman stated that Caspar Weinberger, Forbes' Chairman Emeritus, has also been implicated [by Chuck Hayes checking] out encrypted code number found by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Barry Seal's car trunk after he was murdered by Colombian hitmen when DOJ/DEA hung him out to dry. Evans-Pritchard gave Norman the number, who in turn had Hayes run it and see who and what he could come up with. Hayes found that the number turned out to be a secret Swiss bank account for Caspar Weinberger through which he pulled out several million dollars.

Some sources even believe it was possible that the whole NSA/Foster operation was a policy decision under Reagan/Bush to pay back Israel for their help with Iraq by providing them with our nuclear missile defense system. It is unknown if Caspar Weinberger had applied any pressure to kill Norman's story at Forbes, but he certainly feels that his continuing investigation into Weinberger's involvement in the "Fostergate" story was the real reason for his being fired.

Other journalists who were fired for writing or attempting to write stories on Vince Foster/Inslaw include Christopher Ruddy formerly at New York Post (1/27/94 article, "Doubts Raised Over Foster's Suicide," and 2/10/94 article, "Fumbling Feds Change Story on Foster's 'Suicide'" and Pittsburgh Tribune-Review 9/20/95 "Police Failed to Find Keys to Foster's Car at Park" and 9/26/95 "Clinton Security Chief's Murder Still Unsolved") and Tony Kimery (Media Bypass 9/95, "Penetration: Fostergate II" follow-up to Norman's 8/95 article and upcoming 10/2/95 Insight Magazine article on the NSA's Fin-CEN, Financial Crimes Enforcement Network) at a Washington, D.C. wire service.

Since Presidential hopeful Bob Dole is reported to have Jackson Stephens as his Campaign Finance Chairman, even if he doesn't have a secret Swiss bank account like many of his Congressional colleagues, the damage to his campaign could be terminal if and when this scandal breaks and he is linked with one of the central figures with [Stephens'] Systematics company.

Quite possibly, since many are involved in both parties and independent counsel Ken Starr appears to have been involved in some way, early on in the Inslaw matter, recusing himself as Solicitor General, nothing about this Vince Foster scandal may ever come out in either the House or Senate Whitewater hearings or Starr's investigation and final report if they all can help keep it buried with Vince Foster, especially if there is no serious media scrutiny and reporting.

If nothing is done we can almost certainly expect a huge "blowback" as described by Robert Friedman (New Yorker Magazine 3/17/95, "The CIA's Jihad"), a term which describes how the CIA's covert ops many times wind up causing more problems than their ops are worth. One of these CIA "blowbacks" presumably resulted in the bombing of the World Trade Center after the CIA trained, armed, and financed Arab terrorists and Afghan rebels to fight our former enemy, the Russian occupying army.

Hopefully though, sooner or later serious journalists will decide to truly investigate this story; only then will "Fostergate" and Inslaw be prime time news, despite all the efforts of government officials, business leaders, and major media, to avoid, suppress and/or write dis- or misinformation on this blockbuster story. Who knows, maybe Safire had a point when he wrote, "Sometimes conspiracy theories uncover conspiracy." But poet Robert Frost really said it best: "...But I have PROMISes to keep, and miles to go before I sleep."

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Date: Fri Jan 17, 1997 11:25 pm CST
From: bigred
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STRANGE HAYES CASE GETS STRANGER
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Are Myers and Hayes "Tweedledum" and "Tweedledee?"
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Writes Lawrence W. Myers in the September 1996 issue of Media Bypass Magazine:

[Charles] Hayes and a small cell of experienced retired CIA computer hackers, commonly known as "the Fifth Column," have effectively disrupted the international financial markets, derailed a number of promising corporate careers, and in many ways, altered the American political landscape... it was Hayes who provided James Norman with the details of money laundering and secret Swiss bank accounts tied to key government officials...

Later, Hayes reportedly went so far as to somehow screw up payment of FBI Director Louis Freeh's paycheck. Was that the last straw? Did Freeh vow revenge?

The FBI is connected with the current case of Charles "Chuck" Hayes, which case is now performing strange gyrations in the area of London, Kentucky. According to Gail Gibson of the "South-Central Kentucky Bureau" ("Bureau" of what?), "Prosecutors charge that Hayes, 61, arranged to pay an undercover FBI agent $5,000 to kill his son... The two men are involved in a bitter legal fight over the estate of Chuck Hayes' mother." But wasn't it $100, and not $5,000, that was supposedly paid?

J. Orlin Grabbe (http://www.aci.net/kalliste/), in "Judge Jennifer B. Coffman's Kangaroo Court," notes that Hayes had "begun to name names under oath." But was Hayes cross-examined? Sherman Skolnick suggests that by Hayes speaking under oath, whatever he has said can now be publicized as "true." Skolnick told this editor in a phone conversation (1/17/97) that he has a pipeline into the developing legal situation in Kentucky and suspects a "tremendous deception" by Hayes and Myers.

Yet, as noted in CN 9.94, Grabbe in the past has hinted to this editor that Skolnick is somehow connected to Mossad. But wait a minute: "Mr. Boderby" (CN 9.59; ftp.shout.net in sub-directory pub/users/bigred/vol9) hinted that Lawrence W. Myers was with Mossad. Are Myers and Skolnick *both* with Mossad, and working against Hayes?

Yet Myers is revealed in the Gail Gibson article from the "South-Central Kentucky Bureau" as having been "the free-lance writer who told the FBI that Hayes wanted Hayes' son killed." It appears that Myers is a rat. If Myers and Skolnick were both connected with Mossad, why would Skolnick have repeatedly warned about Myers? As far back as June of 1996 (CN 8.18), Skolnick was saying, "On the day of the Oklahoma bombings... Thomas [of Media Bypass Magazine] hired a person using the name Lawrence W. Myers (is that person really linked to that name? Is his background what he says it is?)"

This raises an interesting question: Is "Myers" really Myers?

In CN 8.50 (circa 7/17/96), Skolnick further warned that, "As far as Chuck Hayes: he alleges that he retired from the CIA. But since he has condemned me as a 'nut,' when my stories about Foster and Whitewater were broader and more comprehensive, I have to assume that Hayes is still with CIA. And since I believe that Lawrence W. Myers reportedly still is a government counter-intelligence agent, and now has joined forces with Hayes, I have to assume that the story instigated by Hayes — the 'Angel of Death' thing — is a melodramatic, watered-down version of my original story."

Regarding Hayes having called Skolnick a "nut," here is the relevant excerpt from Myers' interview of Hayes published in the August 1996 Media Bypass Magazine:

HAYES: This group, Accuracy in Media [AIM], has been attacking the Fostergate story for more than a year. You know, it's a funny thing about these folks over at AIM. Everyone in the intelligence community knows these people are mouthpieces for the Mossad. When people as ludicrous as Scott Wheeler get hired to write hit pieces on people, no one takes them seriously.

He is nothing. It's not even worth my time to even discuss this individual. I do not take time to respond to claims by Scott Wheeler, Sherman Skolnick and a bunch of other nuts trying to make a living with half-baked disinformation.

A key statement by Skolnick, as noted above, from CN 8.50, and published in July of 1996, is "I believe Lawrence W. Myers... has joined forces with Hayes." According to Skolnick, Myers had spoken with him and promised that if he were to "behave," Myers would have pulled strings to get Skolnick his own radio show. Skolnick suspects that Myers somehow strong-armed The Spotlight newspaper into not publishing a story by Skolnick when Skolnick refused to go along with Myers' alleged deal. Currently, Skolnick "strongly suspects a game," with Myers and Hayes doing a Tweedledee/Tweedledum routine for some purpose. As to Hayes' circus of a trial, Skolnick believes "the whole thing is a sham."

Not so, according to "Mr. Mercedes" (pseudonym), with whom I also spoke this evening. Myers, according to "Mr. Mercedes," is *not* affiliated with Hayes. Close to those inside the developing Hayes case, "Mercedes" is of the opinion that Hayes was setting up the FBI for a sting and used Myers for that purpose. Says this east coast source, "Chuck was testing Myers, almost like Judas and Jesus Christ," (but adds that this is only an allegory, that Hayes is definitely no angel.) "Without Judas, where would Christ have been? Without Myers, Hayes could not work the sting." Hayes presumably hoped to benefit from the maneuver by thereby having access to legal discovery procedures. But things didn't turn out as Hayes had planned, observes "Mercedes," with the undercover agent arrested for solicitation of murder. Instead, Hayes himself wound up in the slammer.

Or, along a different line, "Mercedes" theorizes the whole Hayes in jail fiasco may have been arranged by Clinton et al. to remove heat from Hayes and his "Fifth Column" until after the November election. In one thing both "Mercedes" and Skolnick agree: the prosecutor, in the trenches and actually bringing the case forward, does not have a clue as to higher subtleties involved in the case. Increasingly, the whole case is turning into a Keystone Cops episode and, if Judge Wapner of "The People's Court" were presiding, it would have long since been thrown out. "The longer the Department of Justice continues, the worse it will get for them," predicts "Mr. Mercedes."

Of interest in the Myers/Hayes, Tweedledum/Tweedledee theory is a reported statement made by Myers: "I know who is running the court. Hayes sits there like a Cheshire cat, with a big grin on his face."

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Date: Sun Jan 19, 1997 4:41 pm CST
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Subject: Conspiracy Nation — Vol. 10 Num. 06

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THE HEIDELBERG — DeCAMP — GUNDERSON — MYERS CONNECTION
======================================================
Did Lawrence Myers Play a Role in Hoppy Heidelberg's Dismissal?
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In CN 10.05 ("Strange Hayes Case Gets Stranger") I wondered just what the "South-Central Kentucky Bureau" was. A reader was nice enough to inform me that it is the South-Central Kentucky Bureau of the Lexington Herald-Leader. You'll recall that I wrote that, "According to Gail Gibson of the South-Central Kentucky Bureau, 'Prosecutors charge that Hayes, 61, arranged to pay an undercover FBI agent $5,000 to kill his son... The two men are involved in a bitter legal fight over the estate of Chuck Hayes' mother.'" I was informed that Gail Gibson has written at least 3 articles on the Hayes trial, temporarily available at no cost at the Herald-Leader's web site:

http://www.kentuckyconnect.com/heraldleader/index.htm

I was in time and pulled up those other articles written by Gibson (with help from colleagues), from the Herald-Leader web site. They provide a good summary of the Hayes case, useful to any readers unacquainted with the details. For further background, read articles written by J. Orlin Grabbe, especially the series "Allegations Regarding Vince Foster, the NSA, and Banking Transactions," available at http://www.aci.net/kalliste/ and at http://www.shout.net/~bigred/cn.html

The gist of the story (which may astound any new readers) is that Charles "Chuck" Hayes, a former CIA agent fed up with rampant government corruption, began a personal crusade to clean things up. He, with the help of knowledgeable friends, used a secret computer "back door" to enable them to "hack" their way into secret computer accounts. Many of the computers allegedly hacked into belonged to Swiss banks. From the secret information they obtained, Hayes and his "Fifth Column" of like-minded crusaders gained leverage to use against corrupt government officials. "Leave office by sundown, or else we'll blab what we know," this Fifth Column presumably warned Congress-persons, bureaucrats, and others. Besides their inside evidence of individual corruption, Hayes and friends, via their back-door access to bank accounts, reportedly were able to withdraw the bribe money stored there by politicians and other powerful persons.

Did Hayes' actions cause a counter-attack by forces aligned with the U.S. government? I spoke with a source who prefers to remain anonymous, a man with years of investigative experience, who believes that that *is* what the Hayes case is about. According to this source, the Hayes case is a more or less straightforward example of government retaliation against people who have somehow annoyed them. Reportedly, vicious elements within the U.S. government prefer if possible to discredit their enemies rather than simply murder them. Elimination of witnesses by murder can have messy complications, so these elements prefer to set people up on false charges so as to discredit them and/or remove them from the picture. This editor is familiar with such tactics apparently being routinely used, such as in the case of Terry Reed, where Reed had false charges brought against him so as to impugn his testimony.

Further key information on the Hayes case is provided by Gail Gibson, in her series of articles from the Lexington Herald-Leader. An affidavit by FBI agent David Keller claims that Hayes had agreed to pay $5,000 to have his son murdered, but had only actually paid $100. This Agent Keller, according to J. Orlin Grabbe, may have been a former member of The Outlaws motorcycle gang who has both used and sold heroin while at the same time informing on other gang members. Dr. Grabbe bases this claim on information obtained by investigators working on behalf of the defendant.

Gibson also reports that there are supposed to exist taped conversations between Hayes and Keller which will help shed light on what happened. Allegedly, Hayes can be heard to ask Keller what his FBI number is, according to Gatewood Galbraith, attorney for Hayes. If it can be shown that Hayes was perfectly aware of Keller's being an FBI agent, this raises the question: Why on earth would Hayes have contracted his son's murder with a known FBI agent? I am told that, by order of presiding Judge Jennifer B. Coffman, these tapes have *not* been allowed to be played publicly.

In Dr. Grabbe's article, "Judge Jennifer B. Coffman's Kangaroo Court," the iconoclastic ex-Wharton professor charges that prosecution witness Lawrence Myers, a former writer for Media Bypass Magazine, is a convicted felon. Myers reportedly was once convicted on an extortion charge and was later confined to a mental institution. If true, this makes one wonder: What sort of "witness" *is* Myers? Sherman Skolnick in the past has voiced suspicions that Myers is not, as would seem, merely an honest reporter trying to do his job, but a deep-cover government agent who uses a "reporter" disguise to facilitate the gathering of information on subversive types.

The anonymous source mentioned above, with whom I spoke by telephone today, connects Lawrence Myers to the dismissal of Hoppy Heidelberg from a grand jury investigating the April 19, 1995 Oklahoma City bombing or bombings. According to this reputable source, Hoppy Heidelberg retained attorney John DeCamp while Heidelberg was on the abovementioned grand jury. Heidelberg himself, when I spoke with him by telephone, described how he chose DeCamp. Heidelberg was familiar with the Liberty Lobby organization, and sought their advice on finding a good attorney. They recommended DeCamp. At the time, says Heidelberg, he was unaware that DeCamp served as legal consultant for Media Bypass Magazine.

My anonymous source tells me that, protected by attorney/client privilege, Heidelberg discussed developments in the investigation with DeCamp. Heidelberg says that is almost correct, but that DeCamp, being busy at the time, hired Ted Gunderson as an investigator and sent him to Oklahoma to talk with Heidelberg. Ted Gunderson, having been hired by DeCamp, was also under the cloak of attorney/client privilege, according to Heidelberg.

Heidelberg is not 100 percent certain as to the timeline of exactly *when* he hired DeCamp as his attorney. He believes it was shortly before he was thrown off the grand jury for supposedly leaking information. When Gunderson came to interview Heidelberg, he brought along a videographer to tape the interview. Not known by Heidelberg at the time was that Gunderson feared that something might happen to the grand juror and wanted to have taped evidence of what was said. But Heidelberg refused to allow the videotaping. Nonetheless, the videographer, a Mr. Cook (or Cooke), was allowed to remain present during the interview. Cook, says Heidelberg, having been hired by Gunderson, was *not* bound by attorney/client privilege. Awhile later, Cook reportedly spoke with Troy Underhill of Media Bypass Magazine, who relayed what Cook had to say to Lawrence Myers of that same magazine. Heidelberg says that Myers then spoke by phone with Cook more than once, and eventually taped what Cook had to say. Myers then reportedly phoned Heidelberg, who listened to the tape-recording of Cook. Heidelberg insists that he only listened, and did *not* give Myers any information. Yet Myers, in an article in the November 1995 Media Bypass Magazine ("OKC Grand Jurors Claim 'Cover-Up'"), claimed to have had "an exclusive interview" with "a grand juror."

Regarding Sherman Skolnick's "Tweedledee/Tweedledum" viewpoint, that the Hayes case is a subtle scheme whereby Myers plays the bad guy so as to make Hayes appear to be the good guy, my anonymous source expressed skepticism. Regarding Media Bypass Magazine itself, my source is not certain whether they may have been innocent dupes or if the fringe magazine is not, as it seems, a reform-minded publication. Is Media Bypass Magazine some sort of tricky operation, whose strings are pulled by hidden manipulators? I phoned them today but was unable to speak with anyone who could give an authoritative answer. One CN reader, who has had articles published in the magazine, assures me that they are basically aboveboard.. He claims that "an orchestrated effort to shut down the magazine has [thus far] failed." He adds that "Rich Azar, the news editor, is on the Hayes story and has yet another edition of it in the February Media Bypass."

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Frank Scott

Jan 19

This whole series is a lovely dump of knowledge. My mind is a little shook Ns I thought I was well versed on CIA in the 80-90s. Thanks for connecting the dots.

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Susan Taapken

Jan 28

Thank you for all of the RESEARCH you do. Elizabeth! Shared!

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